May 4, 05: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Soapstone Holy Grail??

Posted by BrianWhite (My Page) on Wed, May 4, 05 at 14:50

Long:
I tested two darkening agents on my soapstone last night and (at least as of this morning) I am very encouraged by the results. Before I get into what the products are, let me give you my soapstone background. I have fairly soft Brazilian soapstone in my kitchen that I installed myself. I started using mineral oil to darken the counters and (like most people) I was not happy with the eventual (and often rapid) evaporation of the oil. Several months ago, I graduated to a mineral oil/ bees wax mixture. This certainly retained the dark look longer, but usually by just a few days. While playing around with my own counters, I recently installed Alberene soapstone in a Craftsman style spec home I am building. I am using it in the kitchen (along with a soapstone farm sink and a smaller island vegetable sink) and in two of the three bathrooms. I do not want to go off on a tangent, but the Alberene soapstone is significantly harder than the stuff in my own home. Anyways, upon the final installation of the Alberene soapstone, I promptly oiled the counters with the mineral oil/bees wax product. Once completely oiled, the counters look fantastic!! Of course, I was horrified when I returned the next morning and 85% of the counters were back to their natural color. I know that oil evaporates, but I swear little soapstone pixies must have arrived during the night and sanded the oil off of the counters. Not to be deterred, I re-oiled the counters (using an abundant amount of oil) thinking that it takes a few times for the counters to get completely saturated. Wrong! Apparently the pixies had another busy night, because by the next day, you would never known that I re-oiled the counters. At this point I decided I needed the heavy artillery so I ordered some pure tung oil and I called Alberene for advice. Alberene stated that they do not suggest mineral oil; rather, they use a product called Tenax Ager. I promptly called Tenax and they helped me source the product in Chicago. I purchased it yesterday at almost the same time that the tung oil arrived.

So, with all of the background info out in the open, I conducted my test last night. The first thing I did was apply the tung oil on the counters in my house. I applied a liberal amount and then wiped off all of the excess. I then went over to the house I am building and re-sanded the counters so that not a drop of the old oil was present. I washed the counters and when dry, I applied the Tenax Ager.

Results:
Tung Oil - Unlike mineral oil, which stays in a liquid state and evaporates over a period of time, the tung oil has dried overnight. The result is a counter that looks like it has been freshly oiled, however, the dried oil will not come off on my hands or on a white paper towel. The oil has essentially formed a wet-look shell on the counters. Overall, I am pleased. Obviously, I do not know how this "shell" will respond to regular cleaning, but already, tung oil seems like a significant improvement.

Tenax Ager - I preface my remarks by saying that I am not a salesman for Tenax. I am simply a man who is way too enthusiastic about soapstone. I tease my wife by saying, "next to soapstone, I love you more than anything." Pathetic� I know. Anyways, as I applied the Ager, I started to get a "eureka" feeling. The directions from the guy at Tenax were to put the Ager on with a sponge in small areas and then immediately wipe off the excess. As soon as put the Ager on, the counters turned jet black. This, in and of itself, doesn't mean anything. However, as I wiped off the excess, the counters stayed black!! Unlike oil, the Ager is not thick. It pours and spreads like water. In addition, the color it leaves behind is not a glossy black, the way oil looks when you first apply it. Rather, as soon as you wipe off the excess, it turns and stays a matt black. Needless to say, I felt very encourage when I went home last night. When I went back this morning, there was no change. I went back again this afternoon and they are still black!

Lessons:
From what I understand, the Ager should keep the counters dark; however, wherever the soapstone scratches, the original color will show through. At that point, the counters can be touched up with either more Ager or tung/mineral oil.

I'm not sure if I have found the Holy Grail or not, but I found something that seems promising. As I stated before, the tung oil and the Ager may rub off after a few wipe downs ... only time will tell. If anyone is interested, I will post a follow-up.

Follow-Up Postings:

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Thanks for the info - the tenax sounds great!

Soapstone Oil

Tenax Ager� can also be applied to permanently darken soapstone, but it will
not penetrate to the core of the material as does mineral oil. Applying
Tenax Ager� upon installation and maintaining surface with mineral oil has
resulted as the most practical solution for maintaining soapstone.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Oh yes, keep the info coming! Stupid question, but... what's in this stuff?

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Carole,
I think your quote comes from a web site(Stone Canyon ?)I read yesterday while researching the Ager. The quote confused me as I thought nothing "penetrates to the core" of soapstone... not even mineral oil. As I said to my wife, "I think I am a leading expert on Soapstone." That's sad considering how little I know.

Retro Rabbit,
Actually that's a good question. The answer ... lot's of chemicals. However, Tenax said the Ager is food safe when dry. Much like most granite sealers.

Thanks,
Brian

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Hey Brian, since you live in/near Chicago, would you mind sharing where you buy your soapstone from? I can't imagine a better recommendation than someone who's so fanatical about it. :)

If you'd rather, you can e-mail off the board (from "My Page.")

Thanks!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Im another Chicagoan shopping for slabs!

Please share the rest of the 411 :)

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Holy Grail or Transparent Glue??

I fear the latter. Tenax Ager is a transparent glue (made with sythetic resins and styrene, a carcinogen); this substance is used to seal or impregnate porous stone. It provides a semipermanent wet look the chemical way!

Knowledgeable soapstone retailers would tell you to stay away from anything but a food-safe oil. Applying a transparent glue to the surface of dense soapstone defeats the very purpose of soapstone.

Again, soapstone does not require sealing. It does not, in fact, even require oiling. Oiling does not seal soapstone, it merely creates a pleasing optical effect.

The MSDS sheet alone should scare users off!! Sheesh!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

For slabs, I purchased my original ones through US Granite Sales in Des Plaines (847-824-9200). The place where I purchased the Tenax Ager also has access to slabs - T&M Supply in Wheeling (847-419-0441). The slabs are large and heavy (600lbs) but if you can get them delivered and placed flat on some 2x4's, I have found that they are not difficult to process. You can get a water circular saw from Home Depot (add a diamond blade) and you�re off to the races. Just have someone help you lift the pieces. Finally, the stone from these companies comes from Brazil. It is fairly easy to scratch, but it looks beautiful with lots of great veins. The scratches are easily hidden with oil or sanded away. Oh yea � many of these wholesale companies do not want to sell to end users, because fabricators (their primary customers) don�t like it if the average Joe is making his/her own counter tops. If they ask, simply tell these companies that you specialize in soapstone and then start rattling off "interesting" soapstone facts. By this time their eyes will glaze over and they will be more than happy to sell you anything as long as you go away. Making up some business cards on your PC won�t hurt either.
Thanks,
Brian

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Kecs,
I'm not sure I agree with you. Two "knowledgeable" soapstone companies advocate the use of this (Alberene and Stone Canyon). Also, I spoke with an engineer at Tenax and he said the product, once dry, is food safe and that the chemicals do not "migrate" onto food. Finally, aren't almost all popular sealers chemicals? The entire granite and marble industry uses these products with no ill effect.
I think that I am in the same boat as many stoners (not all). I understand that soapstone is dense and non-porous. I'm not looking for anything to seal it. I'm simply looking for something to keep the stone dark. Mineral oil just isn't cutting it for me.
Thanks,
Brian

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Brian,

I didn't expect you to agree with me.

My purpose in posting was to express dismay at your distinctly counter-intuitive solution to a nonproblem.

Sure, for every 100 stoners here who struggle, or don't, with oil applications for just the right look, there'll be one, like you, inexplicably content with the permanent, chemical wet look.

Chacun son gout!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Kecs,
I can appreciate your "Zen" approach to soapstone, but I'm puzzled by your passive-aggressiveness toward my approach. My solution is not counter-intuitive. In fact it is appropriately intuitive. I perceive shortcomings with mineral oil, and I'm trying to find a better way. My intuition says that anyone who wants the dark/wet look oils his or her soapstone. People, who don't want that look, leave the soapstone natural. It makes perfect sense that if you want it dark, you might look for the best way to make it dark and keep it dark. My brief experience, as documented in my original posting, is telling me that Ager and tung oil work better than mineral oil at darkening the soapstone. Based on my experience with this board, many people are looking for the wet look, and my guess is that if they could find a permanent solution, they might embrace it. Perhaps there are others on this board who want to know about my experiments and who, as a result, may be "inexplicably content with the permanent, chemical wet look."
Chacun a son gout back at you:)

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Brian,

God. I left out a French preposition! Chacun a son gout!

To each his own, indeed. Soapstone has--I have--no zen. Soapstone is impervious to zen and most everything else. It suffers, however, when you slop glue on it.

Kris

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

My heart weeps at the thought of soapstone quietly suffering. ;)

I say if it makes you happy, have at it. They're your counters! I can imagine that no matter how much you love soapstone, oiling it over and over and over would get old. So either you forgo the wet look you once adored, or you find another way.

Kudos for finding another way.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Actually, I am wondering if part of the issue is the type of soapstone. Ours stays black, or very nearly black, for a long time, as long as there is no standing water on it. We do have to oil more frequently around the sinks to keep it looking uniform, but that's a fairly small area, so that's not such a big chore.

We did notice that our island was staying black longer than our main expanse... the difference was that we'd put a thicker coat on the island originally, then let it sit overnight, then let a thinner coat sit... well, several days, because someone covered it up with a tarp while other work was being done in the room. We did something similar with the long counter, and now it is holding its color longer.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

I have noticed with my Alberene sample (probably more than others) that it looses the oil rather quickly. Alberene also had another pretty variety called Churchill. I actually think I might of liked it better but they are out of it for a few weeks. This is an even harder stone than the Alberene and definately is darker and holds the oil better. There is veining and such to the stone but it is all dark (no white viens).

I appreciate hearing alternatives but might be hesitant myself to try it. I have been curious about the mineral oil all along since it has an expiration date on it to begin with. ??

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

"We did notice that our island was staying black longer than our main expanse... the difference was that we'd put a thicker coat on the island originally, then let it sit overnight, then let a thinner coat sit... well, several days"

We did this with our original sample also, and it hasn't been oiled in about 2 months and still looks very dark. I think there's something to the "glop it on and let it sit" approach. It's just so hard to resist polishing these beauties... ;-)

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Please keep the updates coming Brian! I have had my soapstone for a little over a month. Purchased from Hummingbird Soapstone in Glen Ellyn (a distributor of Green Mountain) I have 4 slabs that are "happy slabs" with an oiling every 7-10 days at this point with the time frame getting longer in between oilings. BUT I also have 1 "rebel slab" that I have had to oil every 2-3 days just to keep it somewhere in the realm of the other "happy slabs". I actually like the inbetween "chalky whitish grey" and "dark shiney black/green".

By the way- we purchased our granite (labradorite) from T&M- they are good people to work with in the stone business for anyone in Chicago interested in Soapstone/granite/marble. If you purchase their soapstone make sure you have a good fabricator their slabs are rough cut versions only.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

I've been paying attention to soapstone threads for my next home,
and I would be interested in a more lasting oiling look but Brian the real test of the product will definitely be in heavy usage, constant wiping of the surfaces, which cleaning products, how the counters will stand to the test; please keep us posted of your findings....

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

My experience from testing samples is that those from Alberene and the Mariana (Holly Oak also) stay dark much longer and do not scratch as easily as the stones with a lot of veining and color variations. On samples, the latter stones require oiling every day or so, while the Alberene and Mariana haven't required reoiling.

The stones from Alberene come from the US?

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

My ss has been for a couple of years. I love to oil, so that was not an issue for me and it improved the condition of my cuticles. My experience suggests that oil needs to be applied before any wax is added to the mixture. The wax would seem to make the surface more impervious to the oil application and produce a lighter surface. Thanks for the wax hint kecs! I make my own blend of wax and oil often adding a little flavor for aroma therapy. Does that have any impact on the Zen element? I will continue to oil and wax/oil as that is just part of the ss thing for me and has produced a wonderful surface. My other counters are cherry and it has enhanced those counters as well.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

I oiled my soapstone when it went in last May. I used 2 or 3 coats of pure tung oil. I haven't needed to oil it since. A few spots are starting to look scratched, so I may oil it again in the next few weeks.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Alberene soapstone is quarried in Virginia.

I still don't understand how soapstone can both be "nonporous" and need repeated coatings of oil in order to "saturate" the stone. Will soapstone eventually darken if you do nothing at all to it? Are oils and Tenax both coatings that are not absorbed by the stone but simply coatings that lie on top of it?

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Ellene--I don't understand it either! LOL. The oil does not absorb into the stone and it doesn't become saturated. Still people seem to have difficulty conveying what the oil does do, so they resort to saying it is "absorbed". The oil does stay on the top.

Not sure how I, personally, feel about a permanent "wet look". Doesn't seem right to me. And I hope when folks say "wet look" they are referring to the color and not the shininess. I got my soapstone because I wanted a matte look. I like how the color lightens over time. My stone is always changing.

You would think that people who wanted a permanently dark and shiny stone would choose something other than soapstone. But that's just me. :)

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

I should have clarified that the wet look provided by Tenax is really a dark matt finish. Other than the first few seconds when it is literally wet, the finish quickly becomes matt. It is now the third day since applying the Tenax Ager and the stone is still dark; however, it has faded a little bit. I will probably apply another coat or two over the next week.

It is obvious from the comments to my original post that there is a mixed bag of feelings about oiling soapstone. In my mind this is great. It is part of the interactive allure of the stone. For me, finding something that darkens the stone does not take away from the appeal. It is still silky and smooth to the touch. It still scratches easier than other stones and it still requires a little more TLC than granite. These are all things I love about soapstone regardless of whether it stays dark longer with Tenax or oil. In addition to this, although I am not even remotely artistic, the soapstone counters are something that I created. If it were another material, I would be unable to process the counter tops, but soapstone was a medium that I could work with. Instead of a chisel or paint brush I used a sander, file, saw and router to create something that I hope will be enjoyed 100 years from now. Not to be overly dramatic, but this is part of the joy I get out of soapstone. So, based on this I can see why many soapstoners love the relationship they have with soapstone. It is something they can interact with and affect the look of on a daily or weekly basis. It has a more organic quality ... as I warned you earlier, I am pathetic.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Brian,

when are you going to post pics of your house/kitchen you're building? We'd love to see it.

-a

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Aphilla,
I'll try to do that soon. In another week the project should be completely done. I'll take a number of pictures. Some of the things I have put into this spec house are:
1) Large (5x7) doorless/walk-in shower (with wall jets) instead of a small shower and spa tub.
2) Soapstone in the kitchen, master bath and main hall bath.
3) Elaborate trim work/ casing.
4) Dark mahogany stained trim balanced with high ceilings and lots of windows.
5) Slate in two of the bathrooms, laundry room and mudroom.
6) Cedar shingle siding and wonderful Wisconsin stone on the outside.
7) 4 dominant craftsman squared/ tapered columns on the outside.

I'm excited to post some pictures as many of the elements I incorporated were borrowed from people who post on this site.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

I actually live in the next 'burb over and would love to take a look. I keep an eye on new construction, and this
sounds like a great house.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

aphilla,
The house is on Chestnut just north of Maude. I am normally there around 4:30 or 5:00. If you see a maroon Dodge truck, please feel free to stop in.
Thanks

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Found it, Brian. I hope I get a chance to catch you
over there. I stood on the porch and looked in. What
a great house! Loads of character. That's the
neighborhood we were looking in a year ago and that's
the kind of house we would have jumped on had it been
available. I think you've got great taste!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Sounds wonderful, Brian. You are a true craftsman/artist.
It is a real gift to be able to create a home with character.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

My soapstone counters were installed yesterday and they got their first drink of oil right away. I noticed a large paler irregular "blotch" where the stone didn't take the oil the same way as the rest of the counter. Is it possible to have such a varition in the actual composition of the stone or do you think it is, as I hope, something on the surface? Does anyone know if I should continue to treat the counters or should I stop and sand the offending area first. I am intrigued by the tung oil and am going to try some on a sample piece asap. I will order the tenax also but do I have to sand whole surface and wash etc before applying?

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Please keep adding your results. I've had my SS countertops for over a year now and have been using mineral oil to darken them, applying it less frequently as time does by. I usually put it on liberally and let it sit over night before rubbing it with a soft cloth. After reading about tung oil, I decided to apply some in a small area that is normally covered by a small rack with cookbooks. I'm letting it dry now and opened a window to air out the room.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

burgelane--
It is possible for the soapstone to have lighter blotches--at one time there was a certain type of soapstone called "clouds" because it had larger areas of lighter color.

But just as likely is that it's not holding the oil uniformly. I had a few areas like this, and they all evened out eventually (within a few weeks). Just keep slathering the oil on.

Make certain that the areas of the stone your're concerned about are polished exactly the same as the rest of the stone. You probably won't be able to sand this out, so I wouldn't do anything hasty.

As the oil wears off, you'll notice it less. Everyone keeps saying, and it's true: you won't have to oil the counters much after the first half year or so. They will stay a medium grey which I actually like better than the freshly-oiled black.
Pamela

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Stately Oak,
Thank you for the compliments. I will be finishing the house this week, and unavailable the following week, but if you want the "grand tour" during the week of May 23rd, I would be happy to walk you through, particularly to show off the soapstone. If so, you can contact me via my business email at rehabbing@msn.com
Thanks,
Brian

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Only slightly OT, Brian- any suggestions for removing unsanded caulk and oil-based paint from soapstone?

My only real 'grrrr' in this whole remodel- Tile Guy assumed that since soapstone is not porous, that nothing will stick to it, and didn't bother to bring drop cloths to do the backsplash!!!!!! Hey, buddy- this stuff's not Teflon, ya know!

His response was to sand off the places where the grout hit. Uh, no. I've got to intercept him this AM so he doesn't slosh the sealer all over the soapstone as well.

Thanks in advance!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

pecanpie,
I would use a small putty knife/paint scraper tool (with a steel blade). Keeping the tool very flat (so as not to gouge the stone), easily work/scrape the caulk and paint off. My guess is that it will come of pretty easily particularly if there was previously a layer of oil on the soapstone. From there, you can sand the remaining bits of paint and caulk off the stone and then re-oil. Good as new!
Hope this helps.

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Stone was not oiled before, but I'll try the steel blade scraper. Thanks!

RE: Soapstone Holy Grail??

Brian's soapstone report, actual Brian's house report:

I stopped by this afternoon and he happened to be there.
He's built a lovely house! It's an Arts and Craft style
with a few contemporary touches that are very true to
the Arts and Crafts spirit. I hope he's able to post
some pics soon.

His soapstone is really beautiful and it fits very well
with the rest of his kitchen selections. Very nicely done!

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